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CE Approved
Dec 14, 2002 3:03 pm, by Bob Peterson
Subject : Engineering
from the Automation List dept.
Text :
On a somewhat humorous note, someone popped their head over top of my cubicle a few minutes ago and asked what was the difference between "UL Approved" and "CE Approved". Is it like the difference between a Cadillac and a Yugo? I guess someone sold a job going to Europe and the salesman noted it had to be "CE Approved".

I explained it was more like the difference between a Cadillac and an orange.
:-)

I am no expert on such things and won dered if anyone is aware of a web site I could point towards that would give a good overview.

Bob Peterson
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 14, 2002 3:59 pm, by Bill Clemons
CE = "Conformity European"

http://www.synchrotech.com/support/geninfo-ce-mark.html
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 2:07 am, by William Mostia
The actual meaning for CE is:

CE - "Conformité Européenne" which I believe translates into "European Conformity"

CE is not an approval like UL but rather generally a
self-declaration/self-marking process whereby a manufacturer certifies that the particular equipment meets the requirements for a CE mark(meets appropriate European Directives). Some product do require 3rd party testing.

Here is UL's statement on the CE mark:

http://www.ul.com/regulators/CEmarkinfo.html

Here is a good description of what is involved in a CE mark:

http://www.baccsf.org/cemark9.htm

Bill Mostia
=====================================================
William(Bill) L. Mostia, Jr. P.E.
Partner
exida.com
Worldwide Excellence in Dependable Automation
wmostia@exida.com(b) wlmostia@msn.com(h)
www.exida.com 281-334-3169
These opinions are my own and are offered on the basis of Caveat Emptor.
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 2:03 am, by Walt Boyes
You can get CE Approval from UL...but they aren't the same thing.

UL approval, generically, is basic electrical safety.

CE Marked instrumentation products meet the CE specifications for RFI/EMI shielding and rejection.

It should be noted that products actually made in the European Community do not need to be CE Marked, but products made in the US and imported into the EC MUST be CE Marked. You may think what you like.

Walt Boyes

---------SPITZER AND BOYES, LLC-------------
"Consulting from the engineer
to the distribution channel"
www.spitzerandboyes.com
walt@waltboyes.com
21118 SE 278th Place
Maple Valley, WA 98038
253-709-5046 cell 425-432-8262 home office
fax:1-253-981-0285
--------------------------------------------
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 10:29 am, by Konni
Hi together,

each device in Europe needs a CE certification - it doesn't matter where it comes from. We build devices in Germany/Europe and we wouldn't spend money to do the certification if we wouldn't have too.

Best regards,
Konni
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 1:18 pm, by Steve YATES
A CE marking on a product means that the product complies to all European standards that are applicable for that type of product, it is not restricted to electrical equipment.

Our Intriniscally Safe products carry a CE mark because they conform to all of the following:
Low Voltage Directive
ATEX Directive
EMC Directive

A fluffy stuffed doll woud not comply to any of those but would have to correspond to the relavent standards for toys re materials etc
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 18, 2002 4:08 pm, by Marc Sinclair
Walt Boyes wrote:
> You can get CE Approval from UL...but they aren't the same thing.
>
> UL approval, generically, is basic electrical safety.
>
> CE Marked instrumentation products meet the CE specifications for
> RFI/EMI shielding and rejection.
>
> It should be noted that products actually made in the European Community
> do not need to be CE Marked, but products made in the US and imported
> into the EC MUST be CE Marked. You may think what you like.

This is simply NOT TRUE and I am surprised that anyone would believe this. CE marking is a way of harmonising European standards, A CE mark is meant to show that the equipment conforms to one of the harmonised standards. _All_ relevant equipment sold (or used) in the EEA (European Economic Area) must comply with the rules, wherever it is manufactured - even if it is produced in house, for self use. Before CE legislation, anyone wanting to export to a European country would have had to comply with the specific standards of each country. which may have meant preparing different equipment for installation in England and France. So far from being a protectionist policy as you infer, the legislation opens up the whole of Europe to a single product. Furthermore, as the standards are very high, this maintains an upward pressure on product safety and quality - worldwide.

Marc Sinclair
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 20, 2002 5:30 pm, by Bob Peterson
Against what standards are they very high? When I get equipment sourced from Europe it generally seems of lesser quality then what I would expect from a US or Japanese manufacturer. There are some exceptions (German machinery is generally very good but extremely pricey, thus rarely seen outside of automobile showrooms).

What it was largely intended to do (despite protestations to the contrary) was to make it more difficult for outsiders (US and Asia) to sell into the European market. It has succeeded in some respects as it did reduce the rate of growth of imports, but it made it easier in the long run for foreign companies to compete in that market. How much easier we will someday find out.

Largely what has happened is that lots of resources have been shifted to marking and paper shuffling from product development.

OTOH - its generally a good thing for the marketplace to have a single standard that crosses many boundary lines. One less thing that
differentiates products. Contributes to the commodity product idea.

Bob Peterson
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 23, 2002 4:05 pm, by Marc Sinclair
>Against what standards are they very high?

Safety and machine standards just compare EN60204 and UL508a E-Stop regulations. EMC standards, hence extra filtering on inverters and Switch Mode Power supplies. Power efficiency requirements

>When I get equipment sourced
>from Europe it generally seems of lesser quality then what I would
>expect from a US or Japanese manufacturer. There are some exceptions

Quality, as fitness for purpose is subjective, I buy US built Siemens PLCS, German designed, manufactured with Japanese and Irish components to
EC standard, UK made Inverters made with Malaysian Semiconductors, Czech Republic wound components, Japanese displays in a US Plastics case. All good quality equipment, because it does what I want it to do, but where does it come from ?

>What it was largely intended to do (despite protestations to the
>contrary) was to make it more difficult for outsiders (US and Asia) to
>sell into the European market. It has succeeded in some respects as it
>did reduce the rate of growth of imports, but it made it easier in the
>long run for foreign companies to compete in that market. How much
>easier we will someday find out.

The introduction of the harmonisation did not introduce new standards. If you were successfully exporting to the EU before, then all that was needed was the extra paperwork to show which standards applied. Of course, new standards have been introduced since, and are being introduced regularly :-(

>Largely what has happened is that lots of resources have been shifted to
>marking and paper shuffling from product development.
>

On the other hand, you are saved from having to develop safety and EMC policies - it's all done for you :-)

>OTOH - its generally a good thing for the marketplace to have a single
>standard that crosses many boundary lines. One less thing that
>differentiates products. Contributes to the commodity product idea.
>

And that, I beleive is the aim of this legislation. I had hoped that we, as a community, had gone beyond the idea of nations. I look forward to a system of harmonised world standards. - (roll on the WC mark :-)

Marc Sinclair
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 10:26 am, by Jesper M. Pedersen
Someone stated that the CE mark indicates that equipment meets requirements for EMC.

Be advised that the CE mark ALSO indicates that the equipment meets electrical requirements AND the machinery directive (safety of machines).
Reply

RE: CE Approved
Dec 18, 2002 12:37 pm, by Geoff Moore
Hmmm...interesting interpretations of this, and some very inaccurate stuff from some of you on the western side of the Atlantic ;)

Every product of any type sold in the European Community MUST bear the CE mark.

Any company selling non-CE marked product or any company purchasing non-CE marked equipment in the EC is liable to prosecution (in the UK this can result in fines for companies who violate or fines and/or prison sentences for company directors who do not display due dilligence in the selling or purchasing decisions!!).

I am not aware of any prison sentences having been handed down yet but there have been fines and the courts do have the power to lock people up for gross violations.

In simple terms what CE means is "this product complies with all applicable standards".

So when you find it attached to a piece of electrical equipment the applicable standards will include EMC and electrical safety. When attached to a stuffed toy it means....well toy related safety standards :)

There are numerous broad standards defined for electrical and electronic equipment such as the EMC directive (covering RFI/EMI) and the Low Voltage directive (covering electrical safety) but the allowable levels within these standards are not defined as they vary depending on the application. A range of "harmonised standards" have now emerged each of which lists the specific tests that must be done and their pass/fail criteria for specific types of equipment used in specific types of application. This has made life a LOT more simple for us all as the generic standards were way too difficult to interpret.

A product manufacturer can self certify but they must be able to prove that they have shown due dilligence in :

a. ensuring that they are testing the product to all the proper and applicable standards (a lot easier to do now there are harmonized standards)
b. that the product's characteristics fall within the proper ranges for the standards tested against (hard to do unless you have documented results from properly calibrated equipment properly set up and properly operated).

The extent to which the CE law is enforced and the processes used to enforce it differ between European countries but some do not accept due dilligence of manufacturers unless it is backed up with validated results from a registered test laboratory.

You can assess the level of commitment taken by each EU country to CE by looking at how many state registered laboratories it has. Germany has several thousand, Ireland has one...

Hope this clears up some of the missconceptions.

Geoff Moore
Reply

RE: CE Approved
Dec 20, 2002 3:10 pm, by Walt Boyes
interspersed.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Moore
>
> Hmmm...interesting interpretations of this, and some very inaccurate
> stuff from some of you on the western side of the Atlantic ;)

Beg to differ, Geoff. I've seen these things happen.

> Every product of any type sold in the European Community MUST bear the
> CE mark.

I have seen product sold in the EC that does not.

> Any company selling non-CE marked product or any company purchasing
> non-CE marked equipment in the EC is liable to prosecution (in the UK
> this can result in fines for companies who violate or fines and/or
> prison sentences for company directors who do not display due dilligence
> in the selling or purchasing decisions!!).

That's true.

> I am not aware of any prison sentences having been handed down yet but
> there have been fines and the courts do have the power to lock people up
> for gross violations.

No argument there.

> In simple terms what CE means is "this product complies with all
> applicable standards".
>
> So when you find it attached to a piece of electrical equipment the
> applicable standards will include EMC and electrical safety. When
> attached to a stuffed toy it means....well toy related safety standards
> :)
>
> There are numerous broad standards defined for electrical and electronic
> equipment such as the EMC directive (covering RFI/EMI) and the Low
> Voltage directive (covering electrical safety) but the allowable levels
> within these standards are not defined as they vary depending on the
> application. A range of "harmonised standards" have now emerged each of
> which lists the specific tests that must be done and their pass/fail
> criteria for specific types of equipment used in specific types of
> application. This has made life a LOT more simple for us all as the
> generic standards were way too difficult to interpret.

Costly, too. One of the reasons Foxboro lagged behind throughout the 1990s was the incredible cost of becoming CE Mark certified.

> A product manufacturer can self certify but they must be able to prove
> that they have shown due dilligence in :
>
> a. ensuring that they are testing the product to all the proper and
> applicable standards (a lot easier to do now there are harmonized
> standards)
> b. that the product's characteristics fall within the
> proper ranges for the standards tested against (hard to do unless you
> have documented results from properly calibrated equipment properly set
> up and properly operated).

Here's where, IN PRACTICE, the EC gives European Companies a bye. There is not to my knowledge a single case where the EC or any member country's
customs authority has challenged the self-certification of CE on any automation product.

> The extent to which the CE law is enforced and the processes used to
> enforce it differ between European countries but some do not accept due
> dilligence of manufacturers unless it is backed up with validated
> results from a registered test laboratory.

However, there are several cases where even CE marked products from the US were held in Customs and denied entry into the EC because of "inadequate documentation."

> You can assess the level of commitment taken by each EU country to CE by
> looking at how many state registered laboratories it has. Germany has
> several thousand, Ireland has one...
>
> Hope this clears up some of the missconceptions.

Now that CE Marking has been in force for nearly a decade, and now that US firms have been bought by EC companies, the politics have eased off.

But there is no question that the primary motivation behind CE was to give the EC's indigenous manufacturers a leg up on the competition. Sufficient standards already existed for EMC and Safety without adding a selectively enforceable additional layer of standard.

Water over the dam now.

Walt Boyes
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 27, 2002 10:15 am, by Marc Sinclair
>>Here's where, IN PRACTICE, the EC gives European Companies a bye. There
>>is not to my knowledge a single case where the EC or any member
>>country's customs authority has challenged the self-certification of CE
>>on any automation product.

Could that be because goods within the EU don't pass through customs? - The EU is a common market, allowing free movement of goods and people, within the area. (Just like you don't pass through customs between Utah and Nevada. This doesn't stop US customs checking imports from Europe.) Customs are only one of the authorities charged with enforcement. Within the EU non-compliance is usually uncovered by department of trade officers or, sadly after an accident by the health and safety executive.

Here, just for your knowledge are three domestic companies prosecuted for non-compliance with CE regulations

Arena Supplies Ltd. Accident in which an employee amputated tips of his fingers. Two employees using hydraulic folding machine with single hold to run button. Fined $6,070. Machine supplier Morgan Rushworth Ltd also fined $2,255. Machine was CE marked with a closing ramp speed too fast (28mm/s rather than <10mm/s). Machine did not meet the essential health and safety standards of the Supply of Machinery Regulations.

Brian Selley. Employee injured while working at the conveyor produced by the defendant. Machine did not meet essential health and safety requirements, no risk assessment done, no CE Mark and the machine was unsafe. Fined $4,843.

Stoves Ltd. Employee lost three fingers and part of right hand when he made contact with unguarded toothed gears while undertaking commissioning work on a production line. Serious because the company is responsible for awarding the CE mark on completion of commissioning and testing of the equipment. Fine $9,420.

marc
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 1:23 pm, by Anonymous
After all the hashing is said and done, CE is a move to compete by regulation rather than by quality. I've done many Euro jobs and always had to use local unionized electricians for the actual installation, even though the panel was US bulit by us. Every time I have been amazed that the quality of the installation negates any attempt at quality in the control panel and that they get away with it.
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 2:33 pm, by Zelenka
Dear Sirs,

Your comparison is funny. Which is Cadillac, and which Yugo?. First of all both organisations -bodies (European and American) will sooner or later come to same solutions).

The biggest difference is in Explosion proof equipment. Almost all USA companies that wish to sell in Europe have certified there equipment in
Europe in accordance with CENELEC. I had a situation that we received a container explosion proof installation. The control box and some instruments were Explosion proof, UL listed. The conduit was done by USA company, but
incorrectly. Although the conduits were longer then 2 meters, there was no seal on both sides of the conduit, etc.

So even if each unit is recognised as compatible, still the installation rules shall be compared.

Conclusion: All standards are written to help buyer and seller. All are similar, but not identical.
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 18, 2002 11:52 am, by Bob Peterson
> Your comparison is funny. Which is Cadillac, and which Yugo?. First of
> all both organisations -bodies (European and American) will sooner or
> later come to same solutions).

The guy who asked me the question assumed that one approval was better than the other. My response was aimed at pointing out that "UL approved" and "CE approved" (if there is such a thing as CE approved) are not variations of the
same thing. UL approval means an independent 3rd party lab has tested and certfied that certain items meet certain standards. Thats all it means.

The CE mark means both less and more. It means less, in that no third party testing is required at all (at least for most control applications). It means more in that the mark indicates that the equipment maker is certifying that ALL applicable standards have been met (not just a specific standard).

Not that it matters much, but to my mind, European style control equipment seems somewhat less robust. It seems more application dependent, where as US designed stuff seems to be designed such that it can take the worst cases.
This seems particularly evident in the design of contactors and pushbuttons.

> The biggest difference is in Explosion proof equipment. Almost all USA
> companies that wish to sell in Europe have certified there equipment in
> Europe in accordance with CENELEC. I had a situation that we received a
> container explosion proof installation. The control box and some
> instruments were Explosion proof, UL listed. The conduit was done by USA
> company, but incorrectly. Although the conduits were longer then 2
> meters, there was no seal on both sides of the conduit, etc.

I have no knowledge of your problems with US companys complying with CENELEC explosion proof requirements. I assure you it was nothing I had anything to do with. Does UL even certify stuff to meet CENELEC requirements?

> So even if each unit is recognised as compatible, still the installation
> rules shall be compared.
>
> Conclusion: All standards are written to help buyer and seller. All are
> similar, but not identical.

Installation rules here are governed by tens of thousands of local government inspection departments, all of whom think they know more than the guys who wrote the NEC, and have their own ideas about what each paragraph means. Plus we have local building code agencies in many locales who care only for the political contributions they can get for skewing the building code to help their political friends, usually unions and unionized contractors, so they add on things to the NEC that are required in their locale only.

Bob Peterson
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 16, 2002 2:54 pm, by Roberto Burgos
CE stands for "Conformite Europeenne" which is an agency approval in the european union

UL stands for "underwriters laboratories" USA wich is an agency approval in the us

this agency's preform test and certifications acording to their own standards, there are several more depending on the aplcation of a product.
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 18, 2002 9:35 am, by RVK
There is no such animal called as a CE Approval! CE does not approve anything. This is a declaration by the manufacturer of the equipment in discussion that their manufacturing procedures were safe and that they did not damage the environment. No wonder you see the CE sticker on helium baloons & the kids toys.

UL on the other hand requires testing. Also, UL applies if the device is connected to circuits 30 Volts & there are certain pre-requisites to get the approval.

In simple language, You declare the CE compliance yourself if you are a primary manufacturer, but you pay somebody to get UL approval even if you are a primary manufacturer.
Reply

RE: CE Approved
Dec 20, 2002 2:01 pm, by Geoff Moore
To RVK !

Nonsense!

As I have already stated in an email to this list but which I haven't seen posted yet, when attached to a product CE means "this product complies with all applicable standards".

Your email is dissinformation. You should not post to lists until you know what you're talking about.

Manufacturers are technically allowed to self certify but the tests they must carry out are predefined in European standards, the pass and fail criteria are predefined in European standards and the governments of each European country defines how manufacturers prove that they have adhered to these standards.

In most countries the only accepted way to prove this is to undertake the tests in a government licensed test house.

I don't know anything about US standards but I hope people posting to this list know a lot more about them than they obviously do about European ones!

Regards

Geoff Moore
Reply

RE: CE Approved
Dec 23, 2002 11:53 am, by Walt Boyes
Mr. Moore,

I have had products CE Marked.

I have studied the situation for nearly 10 years.

You are accurately citing the letter of the rules, but perhaps not the spirit and the intent.

Unfortunately, many European instrumentation manufacturers are following a different drummer.

There are two sets of standards for US products shipping to Europe and European products used there.

US Products that are self-certified are regularly challenged. European products that are self-certified are not.

As I have posted previously, I am unaware of a single case of a European product whose self-certification has been challenged. I _am_ aware of several cases where US Made goods have been seized by european customs agencies, even though the boxes were clearly labeled CE, and their self-certifications were challenged.

So, it is more expensive to achieve CE Mark in the US than in Europe.

This is clearly an informal barrier to trade.

Walt Boyes

---------SPITZER AND BOYES, LLC-------------
"Consulting from the engineer
to the distribution channel"
www.spitzerandboyes.com
walt@waltboyes.com
21118 SE 278th Place
Maple Valley, WA 98038
253-709-5046 cell 425-432-8262 home office
fax:1-253-981-0285
--------------------------------------------
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Dec 24, 2002 2:29 pm, by Geoff Moore
Walt

I have no argument with your experiences. You may have noticed my comments two or three mails ago on the enforcement of standard throughout the EC were intended to be somewhat tongue in cheek. In some European countries the standards situation is laughable.

This is not the fault of the equipment manufacturers, it's down to each country's regulatory authorities and the way in which the CE regulations have been written into the law. As an example, in the UK a product or company will only come under the spotlight if some other company or individual makes a complaint against them. If a non-compliant product gets into the market and nobody complains then that product will continue to be sold with no penalty.

Here in Ireland the body responsible for enforcement is the Trading Standards Authority, a grossly undermanned government agency who are also responsible for such diverse subject areas as advertising standards and consumer goods pricing monitoring. The commitment of our government to high standards in CE compliance can be gauged by the fact that the only government operated test house was recently closed down, leaving only one independant test house in the country!

OK, the situation isn't ideal, but in principle it is a better system than one that can put out product with no certification whatsoever or one that can fool the uneducated consumer by quoting a whole list of irrelevant standards.

I too have studied the system, in my case for well in excess of 10 years. As an equipment designer working in the EC I watched the situation unfold from the mid 1980s, including more than one stalled launch of the system because "nobody was ready". (CE was supposed to happen in 1992 but nobody took it seriously so it was put off until 1993...then everyone panicked...so it was put off again until 1994 because nobody was ready).

Fear ran riot through the electronics industry in Europe. Panic stricken company execs caught up in stories about how costly it would be to certify entire product ranges, tales of 5 year waiting lists to get into test houses, scare mongering amongst competitors each trying to out do each other.

I saw just as many panic stricken engineers scared of having to certify products which had formerly required no certification, engineers who had been putting together digital systems blissfully un-aware of the radiation they were spewing all over the spectrum.

I watched several companies completely change direction as a result of the introduction of CE.

I also watched several micro-enterprises go out of business because they couldn't afford to put their products through the test regime.

Perhaps from the US perspective it appears that CE has been invented as a means of blocking outside competition but I find that a little hard to swallow given the amount of US and Far Eastern manufactured equipment in circulation here.

Within the EC it would appear otherwise. Like many (most?) other European directives CE favours large corporations to the detriment of small companies and entrepeneurs. Most larger companies (particularly in mainland Europe) with a significant output of new product now have certified in house test facilities to reduce the cost burden. The certification of these test facilities is handled by each member state's own standards authority, and it is here perhaps that the problems arise.

We have product manufactured and certified in house at a company in India and have absolutely no problem getting it into the EC.

BYW The very first compliance related prosecution of a company in the UK was of a company manufacturing PCs and attaching the CE mark having falsely claimed to have self certified their product. Can't remember the company name or the exact date but it would have been around 1995/6.

What I really take issue with in this series of mails is the myth that is being circulated regarding the low quality of European equipment.

CE may represent "an informal barrier to trade" in SOME circumstances as you state, however there is an even greater one being built by people who do not know anything about European standards expressing their opinions on this list as if these opinions were facts.

I agree that there is some very poor quality European equipment on the market but I have seen some horrendously bad US made equipment too. I do not use this as a weapon with which to pummel the entire US electronics industry and I do not try to preach to others that US made = bad quality.

There are a lot of fine engineers contributing a lot of good information to this list, but there are also a lot of impressionable people who take everything they read here as gospel.

If I had two general suggestions for people on this list they would be:

1. for God's sake, do a search before you ask a question (if you don't get pretty close to the answer from the search assume you've asked the wrong question)

2. turn up the opinion filter, both when reading and when contributing

Regards

Geoff Moore

=========================================
Modulo - Advanced Security Devices
(A division of Straight Forward Solutions Ltd)
Maynooth Road, Prosperous,
Naas, Co.Kildare, Ireland
Phone : +353 (0)45 892739
Fax : +353 (0)45 893880
Mobile : +353 (0)86 8179683
email : geoffm@modulosecurity.com
web : www.modulosecurity.com
=========================================
Reply

RE: CE Approved
Jan 10, 2003 10:42 am, by Amgad Badawi
> There are two sets of standards for US products shipping to Europe and European products used there.

_Simply_Not_True_ The Standards are available for everyone to inspect. There is only one set of standards that I can find, the standards even apply to products made for internal company use!

> US Products that are self-certified are regularly challenged. European products that are self-certified are not.

Again Simply_Not_True, even a quick 'net search brings up many instances of prosecutions!

> As I have posted previously, I am unaware of a single case of a European product whose self-certification has been challenged. I _am_ aware of several cases where US Made goods have been seized by european customs agencies, even though the boxes were clearly labeled CE, and their self-certifications were challenged!

You obviously do not understand anything about The EU. Customs authorities do not interfere with internal goods. As for European products, It has certainly happened, I even read (and checked)some examples of prosecutions in previous posts!

> So, it is more expensive to achieve CE Mark in the US than in Europe.

_Simply_Not_True - these rumors are usually put about by companies looking for consultancy work, by the way, what do you do again?.
I work for a company who manufacture goods in the US for sale the world over - yes - even the EU. The effort put into CE marking was no more that any other regulatory conformance, it's just what the customer wants.

> This is clearly an informal barrier to trade.

No, what is an informal barrier is scaring off US manufacturers with tales of this type. Let me tell my US buddys, Europe is open for business, just be diligent with your paperwork.
Reply

Re: CE Approved
Jan 13, 2003 2:39 pm, by PETERSONRA@aol.com
> > There are two sets of standards for US products shipping to Europe and
> > European products used there.
>
> _Simply_Not_True_ The Standards are available for everyone to inspect.
> There is only one set of standards that I can find, the standards even
> apply to products made for internal company use!

A fairer statement would be that there are two standards for compliance. One for products made inside the EU and one (much stricter) for those made outside the EU.

> > US Products that are self-certified are regularly challenged.
> > European products that are self-certified are not.
>
> Again Simply_Not_True, even a quick 'net search brings up many instances
> of prosecutions!
>
> > As I have posted previously, I am unaware of a single case of a
> > European product whose self-certification has been challenged. I _am_
> > aware of several cases where US Made goods have been seized by
> > european customs agencies, even though the boxes were clearly labeled
> > CE, and their self-certifications were challenged!
>
> You obviously do not understand anything about The EU. Customs
> authorities do not interfere with internal goods. As for European
> products, It has certainly happened, I even read (and checked)some
> examples of prosecutions in previous posts!

Thats kind of the point isn't it? Since goods being sent within the EU are not even looked at by the customs people they concentrate on goods coming from outside the EU. The was the whole purpose in the first place.

> > So, it is more expensive to achieve CE Mark in the US than in Europe.
>
> _Simply_Not_True - these rumors are usually put about by companies looking
> for consultancy work, by the way, what do you do again?. I work for a
> company who manufacture goods in the US for sale the world over - yes -
> even the EU. The effort put into CE marking was no more that any other
> regulatory conformance, it's just what the customer wants.

I think the issue is really one of compliance. US companys just do not want to sign on the bottom line until all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed because of all the silly litigation that goes on here. This is not a big issue in Europe. Look at the minimal fines for noncompliance, even where serious injury or death resulted.

> > This is clearly an informal barrier to trade.
>
> No, what is an informal barrier is scaring off US manufacturers with tales
> of this type. Let me tell my US buddys, Europe is open for business, just
> be diligent with your paperwork.

The US will someday figure out that it makes no sense to subsidize our trading partners. Eventually.

Bob Peterson
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The machine does not isolate man from the great problems of nature but plunges him more deeply into them. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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